Fractional Hustle

Kate Howard - Fractional Hustle
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Stephen: [00:00:00] Hi everyone. Welcome back to Fractional Hustle. My guest today is Kate Howard. Kate is the founder of Monday Digital, and Kate lives in Victoria, Australia. She's an experienced marketing and e-commerce specialist. She's skilled in creative strategy, fractional CMO, performance marketing content, and email marketing.

That's a lot of pieces to cover, but Kate, before we get into that, I just want to know a little bit more about your life, your journey, you know, how you got to where you are as the founder of Monday Digital. Can you tell me a little about, about yourself?

Kate: Yeah, sure. Um, so yes, I live in Victoria, in Australia with my partner and 2-year-old son, um, and, um, dog.

And we live in, um, like a rural sort of farm area of Victoria. Um, I have spent the last. 15 plus years in marketing and literally 99% of that time in-house. Um, and then the last sort of year and a half I have come out and started Monday Digital, [00:01:00] um, as a, basically trying to do things a little bit differently in the industry and trying to step away from the agency model and offering a different kind of service and partnership to people that maybe, um, they weren't getting from the everyday agency.

Um, a lot of the reasoning came from frustration with agencies and just like the constant, um, frustration we were having with our internal agencies when, um, I was in-house and my bus, I've got a business partner as well, and so when we were both in-house, there was a lot of frustration that we had with our agencies.

So Monday digital was really born out of a desire to do things differently. That sounds cliche because every agency says that, but we do, and we can go into it, but we do do it a bit differently. Um, and I guess I've spent the last year, like 15 years in head of marketing roles. Um, I was head of marketing for a business in Australia called Sheet Society, which is a big kind of cult loved brand in Australia for bed linen.

Kate (2): Mm.

Kate: Um, and then prior to that, Frank Green, which is another cult loved brand, um, who do reusable cups and bottles. And then prior to that, just a lot of sort [00:02:00] of mid-level senior level marketing roles and, um. Then prior to that I was in crisis management. So I've kind of done lots of different types of things, uh, which has led me to here starting, um, Monday Digital really.

That's kind of how it started.

Stephen: Yeah. So how are you trying to be different? Like what problems were you seeing with traditional agency models and how are you trying to be different?

Kate: Yeah, there's a, is a really funny one because when I start speaking to people about it, they say to me, oh, well every agency is.

Doing it differently. You know, that's the catchphrase of every agency. Like we do it differently or we're digital led or you know, there there'll be some kind of catchphrase, which is basically around like, we're doing it differently.

Kate (2): Yeah. The

Kate: big difference with what we do is that we aren't agency people.

Uh, and that's the thing that I say and that's what connects me to our clients because they are internal people. And both myself and my business partner Emma, have been internal. Our whole career. So we aren't agency people, therefore we don't approach our agency, like agency people. So it's, I like to, I don't even like the term agency.

I actually [00:03:00] really defer from saying it. I use the term partnership or collaboration a lot more because it really is more like a partnership. And the reason that it is different is because I have been in house for that 15 years. And so has Emma. And so we take the approach with every partnership as if we're an extension of the marketing team as, so that's where, and that's really where the fractional, my fractional CMO work came from.

So we, a lot of the frustrations that you, that most people have with digital agencies is having people sitting in front of you going, we 10 x your account, and we did this, and we did that. And talking about all these platform metrics or these almost like what I would call like secondary metrics, which were, are fluffy and great to look at, but then.

They can't actually talk to the impact that that's had on the business. And that's, you know, so terminologies around cac like what a customer acquisition cost is, or what the blended meh is and all that kind of stuff is sort of over their head and they can't talk to it. And that is, that was a, that was a really big [00:04:00] frustration for me sitting in those agency meetings where I'd have people say to me, all these amazing things they've done.

And then I'd go into leadership meetings and the leadership team would say, yeah, but the net profit's on the floor. Or, yeah, cool, but we're not, not acquiring new customers into the business or whatever that it might be. And there was never a link between these two things. It was just this constant, these, these two areas constantly butting their heads against each other because we'd have these agencies telling us how good they are.

And then we'd have the leadership team or the executive team. Saying, hang on. Like, yeah, cool. You're doing all these great things. You're driving all these sessions to site, you're doing all this amazing stuff, but we've got fundamental issues with. You know how much we're paying to acquire a customer or what product they're purchasing when you're driving them in, or whatever it might be.

And so having those conversations over the years was always met with, well, we just do your performance marketing. We just do your matter ads and your Google ads. What happens on site's got nothing to do with us or your low, your conversion rate, well that's your web team. They need to fix that. Which sure, absolutely.

You might have multiple agencies and everyone kind of needs to work together, but if you've got a digital agency, [00:05:00] specifically a performance agency that has no concept. Of the broader picture. That's just such a frustrating conversation to be constantly having every week. Yeah. And so we sort of thought, wait, why don't we just break the mold?

Why don't we try and do something differently? And so when I, I have a lot of, I had a lot of frustration, so I kind of got out and thought I can do this differently. Um, and then I think, yeah, over the months my business partner who was still in-house was watching it and thought, yep, cool. Like, I can, I think I can, I can do something here and I can join.

And I. That is because she's come from an e-comm side and I've come from performance marketing and I think we thought if we could join these two things together, we probably could, um, offer in Australia a really different service that is currently not available. And I speak to a lot of, we'll do a lot of like discovery calls with clients or even, you know, the even sort of friends in the industry and we don't see anyone offering this service.

It is particularly, it is I'm an agency or I'm a [00:06:00] consultant. There's no one who's like, Hey, let me be an extension of your team. Let me, let us, you know, as take, bring our senior experience in and walk you through the different, um, ways we can help you. And that has been, so that's been the real difference.

And I think that's why Monday's been really successful in the last 12 months is because it is a different offering. It's not an agency offering. Um, which is, so, it's a bit hard to articulate and I'm probably stumbling over it a little bit 'cause it's not.

Stephen: No. Easy to kind of get out. No, I get it. I get it.

Kate: But it's, it's just basically that we're internal people. I guess that's the best way to think about it.

Stephen: Yeah. No, I, so you saw a problem in the market and you're trying to create a solution. No, it sounds like it makes a lot of sense for, and then bringing on Emma as well, you know, that's awesome that you kind of like built that team.

Um, so when you're coming on, you know, to that collaboration, right? Like with, for, for a new organization, what's kind of your philosophy going into it? You know, what are you looking for? What are you trying to fix? [00:07:00]

Kate: Well, um, first and foremost, I'm. Pretty much I, I'm looking at the founders and I'm looking at the people at the very top right at the, at the start.

Um, we've said no to some people who don't align with us and don't fit with us, and that's been a really big one for me. I'm in my mid thirties now and, you know, we've got a family and I've got a lot on, and I'm not gonna partner with people that don't align to me and to Emma and also to what Monday is as a, as an agency.

So. Um, that's a big one. I'm looking for people who are like-minded and who connect with us. Typically that is female led. We do have, um, you know, male clients, but it is typically more female led businesses that align to us in the lifestyle, fashion, beauty space.

Kate (2): Yeah.

Kate: Um, but so it's definitely finding like-minded people, but it's also people who've got appetite.

To scale, but also have an appetite for, um, education and understanding. There is nothing worse than a founder who tells me that they know everything, especially in marketing, because founders are typically, like, I find they're typically product [00:08:00] people. They're very passionate product people. They're very product led and they understand they're market fit very well and they get what they need to bring to market, um, from a product perspective, but they've not got, they've really got a very low comprehension of how to do that from a marketing perspective.

But they don't really know that. And so they'll always be telling you about how they know all these different things that you could be doing, and there's all these different ideas that they've got and dah, dah, dah. But you know, after you've been doing it for such a long time, you're pretty good at knowing what will work and what won't.

And there is nothing more frustrating than having a founder that doesn't have the comprehension of where of the areas they're missing. So for me, I'm very much looking for, um. People, founders, or, you know, senior business leaders that we partner with who are very open and vulnerable about their areas that they're not potentially, um, that maybe they're not skilled in.

That, for me is a big one. We can't come in and we can't change things and scale things if we've got people, if we, if our roadblocks are the founders, basically.

Kate (2): Yeah.

Kate: So definitely those two things. And the, and the, the reason that that's probably a [00:09:00] big one as well is because, because the agency is more like a partnership.

We do need to be an extension of their marketing team and we need to sometimes say, Hey, why did you send this email out? Or, what's going on with the design of this email? Or did you know the email's hitting a landing page that has a low converting that a conversion rate on it so it's not merchandise correctly or whatever it might be.

So we do need to sort of sometimes ask some questions outside the space that we're retained on, and that's what Monday is about. We do sometimes, I've sat on a lot of whips recently where we probably talk about the performance marketing retainer. For 10 minutes and we talk about the rest of the business holistically for 50 minutes.

And I now have in those meetings the founders coming in into some of those meetings. 'cause they wanna sit in on those meetings and they wanna be part of it because they know it's not just us talking about performance metrics. It is us talking about the broader business. And that isn't obviously something that we sell on at the start.

It's 'cause it's a bit of a hard. Thing to kind of get across to people that we are bigger than just your performance [00:10:00] agency. But that is a lot of, like, we'll find, a lot of the founders will be coming on wanting to talk to us about the bigger picture of everything because we've been doing that part for so long.

So there has to be appetite for people to wanna talk to us about their business and about their, you know, their financials. Or not necessarily in the granular detail, but giving us like broad understanding is what their margins are like or their cogs alike. And so we can kind of work through, you know, what's going on.

So those are probably the areas that I look for. Anybody who. Is gatekeeping information. Is not open to educational or you know, bringing on new knowledge. I'm not really interested in, to be honest. I think it's just a giant red flag and I want nothing to do with it.

Stephen: Yeah, yeah. No, it sounds like you're avoiding a lot of headaches, honestly, and yeah.

Mm-hmm. When it comes to someone saying, I. I know everything. It's like you're the person I trust the least when it comes through. Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. If you think you know everything, it's like, no, there's so much to know and to, you know, to always be continually learning. Like it's like you need to be open to that, to, to that outside information.

So, and that's really cool. So it almost sounds like you're [00:11:00] taking on not only just like helping optimize like their marketing, but you almost take on like a coaching role on like an, an advisory, like in terms of the whole business.

Kate: Yep, for sure. Like, and it really depends on different clients, different, um, the different need.

Like I've got one client at the moment who, um, I'm doing like fractional work for, but we are. Working really clo I'm like, I'm helping her find a new, um, manufacturer and I'm working on their NPD pipeline about like the products they're gonna bring out over the next 12 months. That's, I mean, that kind of like NPD pipeline obviously does sit inside like a fractional CMO space, but I, you know, normally wouldn't be on the call with manufacturers talking about the cos that, you know, so, but that's sort of an area where she's like, okay, I, you know, I need some upskilling here.

I need some help here. So I'm jumping on and we're working through like. You know what that pipeline could look like in that area. So it kind of just expands out into different areas as different people kind of work out the different things that they need throughout the months. Um. So, yeah, I, I mean, it is a little bit coaching.

I do [00:12:00] like to stay in my lane of marketing. I definitely, you won't find me in like a cashflow forecast or, um, you know, going out into a warehouse trying to redo the, the systems or anything. Like, I do try to stay inside my lane, but typically in like a lot of the head of marketing roles, you kind of are sitting a lot across a lot of the business.

You are what, like sitting very closely with the founders because you are the lever for a lot of the revenue coming inside the business. So I found myself over the years. I'll be involved in product meetings where I'm asking where, where the ship's docking so we know when the product's coming from port to warehouse so I know when I can put it online and I know what the sell, like that kind of stuff.

So kind of like that is, I think naturally in a marketing role, in a, in a, you know, a senior marketing role, you do kind of find yourself. In those discussions that typically are outside marketing. So that's where naturally that's led to in this agency model that I've got that I do kind of start to dip into other areas.

Um, I try not to say too much. Like I'll come in and coach. 'cause I hate the term coach as well. Yeah. I think there's every [00:13:00] man and his dog's a coach right now. Um,

Stephen: yeah. Or podcaster.

Kate: Yeah, yeah, true. Um, but I do, I try, I try to lean on like the fractional CMO term a lot to try to say. It can be whatever you need it to be.

And it can, like, from a fractional sense, it can be, you know, divided up into lots of different fractions, into all its different areas.

Stephen: Yeah. So the word fractional, right? This is what this is all about. Just in terms of your life, you know, you're also a mother. How has this been for you? What are the strengths, the weaknesses, you know, does it align with the life you're trying to build for yourself?

Can you just tell me about, about that?

Kate: That is such a hard question, and so yes and no. Like it's a Saturday morning right now, and my son's outside with his father, and you know, I'm not there. So in some ways it doesn't align at all. Like it's. Not great, but then in other ways, it's the most freeing thing that I've done in my career.

I don't have a nine to five, I don't have to be anywhere. I don't wanna be even client meetings like where clients are good enough that if I'm like, Hey, I've got a headache, or, Hey, I've got this is going on, they're like, [00:14:00] cool, we'll just move it like we'll work with you. So in some ways it's the most free I've ever been.

It's the most financially free and most like physically free I've ever been. But at the same time, I've got handcuffed every day, all day because I can't. I can't leave my laptop. I can't, you know, leave my emails. So it, it, it works for my life in some ways and in other ways it doesn't. Um, I think anyone who's a mom just knows that you carry like a constant guilt for everything that you do.

I'm not doing enough for him. I'm not out there with him. I'm on my laptop. I'm checking my phone. I should be listening to what he's telling me. He's trying to give me a hug. I'm trying to check an email. You know, they said there's this constant guilt all the time. Yeah. And pairing that with growing a business grow, like we've got multiple businesses going on is, um, is really, really hard and I'm really not good at it.

Um, I've heard a lot of people say, you can't have it. You can have it all, but you can't have it all at once. I am trying to do it all at once and I [00:15:00] recognize this is probably going to crash and burn into something the end of the year probably. Yeah. Um, because in the way that I see it is I'm always kinda like, I've just gotta do more.

I've just gotta constantly do more because the biggest. The thing that drives me every single day is the security of my family. That's the number one thing that gets me out of bed, is making sure that my family is financially secure for their, for our life. So it's a double-edged sword in a way. I can't, I can't have that freedom and I can't have that good balance because I'm working a lot.

But at the same time, because of the work that I do, we do have a lot of freedom. So I don't balance it well at all. Um, but I think the good thing with the fractional work is that it can, it's almost can be project based so I can kind of come into it and then out of it and into it and out of it. But that is a privilege of working in marketing for 15 years and dare I say the word hustle for 15 years to get me to the point of being able to make choices that align to my lifestyle and the [00:16:00] values that me and my family have.

Um, and it has taken. 15, I look, it could be actually over 15 years, um, of time to get me to this point. And, um, I had to give up a lot of my life. I didn't travel as much as I would like to. I didn't live overseas. I didn't do all the things that, um, I probably would've wanted to do in my twenties so that I can get to this point now at 35 where I can have a lot more freedom.

Um, a lot of people say to me like, what should I do to get into digital and how, and, you know, how do I climb up the ranks and what do I do, you know, when I'm in And my advice is always like, just working harder and harder again, and harder again. But, but in Australia, that's an easy thing to say because we have constraints on how you can work.

Whereas I know over in the States that's a different thing. Like, I think I, I would be hesitant to say to people in the states. Work even harder. And work even harder. 'cause I don't really know what the outcome of that would look like.

Stephen: Yeah.

Kate: Like if you can't be on at 11 o'clock at night on a Friday, like that's just not acceptable in Australia.

Well, in some [00:17:00] workplaces it is in law in those areas it is. But you know, in my, in my industry, you couldn't really do that. Um, but yet that's kind of always been my thing. Like you just to work even harder so that I can get to this point where I can have the privilege and of choosing the lifestyle that I want.

Stephen: Yeah. Yeah. No, I, and you know, life's a continual process, right. And, and tinkering with it, you know, and getting the, the family, it sounds like you got the work locked down, right. 'cause you've, you've spent 15 years doing it, but, you know, balancing the family life, you know, I know that's new, right? You said your son was two, I think, before we logged on, right?

Yeah. So it's like, you know, you're still, yeah. You're still figuring that part out, and then when it all comes together, you know? Yeah. That's, that must be really, really difficult, you know, to, to find that balance. You know? I, yeah. I don't know. I don't know how that would, um, and, and when it comes to the states too, it's like, yeah, it is.

I think post, you know, I know everyone talks about the pandemic all the time, but post pandemic, like, I think the pedal, you know, everyone was pedal to the metal for the states, you know, when it comes to work. And then, you [00:18:00] know, COVID kind of like slowed things down for everybody. And so like people really evaluated like, how do I wanna build my life?

You know, how do I want to. Balance work. And it's like, I do want to go on vacations. I do wanna spend time with my kids. Like I do wanna, you know, do things that I enjoy in addition to work. But it's like, you know, the financial security right, is like the big thing that like everyone comes back to, you know?

And

Kate: I think on that point about financial security. It's funny that I'm the most financially secure I've ever been, but I've been, I've had to take the most amount of risks I've ever had to take to get here.

Kate (2): Wow. Yeah. And

Kate: that is a scary thing when you think about it. I, I left, I left a job with no income when I, I left Sheet Society to start Monday Digital, and we had no clients.

We had nothing in the pipeline. It was literally like, I have no idea how this is gonna work. So I had to take so much risk for such an outcome. But at the time I was just literally diving into the abyss. I had no idea I [00:19:00] had to just back myself. And a lot of people have said to me, how did you know to back yourself?

I absolutely didn't. And I'm still right now not sitting here backing myself. I don't know what's gonna happen tomorrow. And the unknown and jumping in is so scary and it's so hard to do. And it is. So it's the thing that keeps me up at night when I'm lying there going, am I doing the right thing? We'll take equity stake in businesses.

Like that's the thing that my business partner and I are sort of moving into at the moment. Um, and is that the right thing to be doing for my family to be taking equity stakes in more and more businesses, taking myself more and more away from them, both physically, but then also potentially delaying our financial return.

And it just feels like such a risk. And a lot of people have said like, are you sure that you should be doing it? Absolutely. I'm not sure at, at all. I could just be absolutely. Screwing this up. And that's what keeps me up at night. And that's a really, and you know, like, is it, is it experience that [00:20:00] allows me to take this risk?

I don't think so. I don't think it's, I don't think it's ex, um, career experience. I think it's maybe life experience. I've kind of gotten to the point where I'm like, well, what else can go wrong?

Kate (2): Yeah. Like

Kate: I, I feel like it's wi my partner and I have had it really tough over the last few years financially.

There's been sort of lots of ups and downs. And I sort of think like when you're at rock bottom, you can't go further down. You're kind of there, you know? So I kind of like, we've had, we've, you know, there's been times where we're like, we can't pay the mortgage. Yeah. Like, this is like, as someone who's highly skilled at what they do, why am made a point where I can't pay the mortgage?

Like what is going on? And. The biggest thing's being like, well, I've just gotta take a risk. Then I've just gotta, I've just gotta think laterally. I've got to think bigger. I've gotta go harder. I've gotta have an entrepreneurial mindset, and I've just gotta attack this thing as fast and as hard as I can because I have no other choice.

There's, there's no other choice, like my family need me to do it. Um, and what else do I do? And so that's also [00:21:00] been, the other thing that's gotten me to a place I think of sort of more financial stability is almost the blind faith and delusional, um, faith that it'll work out. Yeah. Which is so bizarre.

It's the most scary and also hardest thing to do, um, believing that maybe your businesses will work out in the end. Because they just have to, and if they're not, then it's not the end is kind of my concept.

Stephen: Yeah. Yeah. I think that the reason people, I. I mean, my realization with jobs was it's like, you know, you think you're secure.

Right? And then, you know, you can be, you know, really good at it, at that field. Like you are like, you know, or my experience right. Was like, still let go. Right. You know, we kind of talked about that before we logged on together. Right. But it was just like, you know, you think just because it's a job and you know it's someone's telling you what to do and there's stuff coming in, it's like you think you're secure, but then you can still be let go, you know, or be, you know, around the layoffs or whatever.

So it's like. [00:22:00] You know, I think, you know, all of it's scary in some sense, you know? Totally. But it's like, at least I think in your case, right? Like you definitely have a hand on the wheel. And, and I really admire, this has been a theme in my life too, which I, I see in yours, which I really appreciate, is that I.

I'm planting as many seeds as I can right now. Right. You know what I mean? And it's like hopefully, you know, they might not all become fruit trees, but like, I'm hoping, like, you know, a couple of them do. Right. So it's like when you're doing the equity thing, it's like, you know, I don't know if all those will pay off, but it's like, you know, a couple of them.

And you know those founders, you know those companies intimately, right? And you get those good feelings from them and you know them. And so you are doing a form of due diligence, right. Getting inside of those companies. And so I think that's really smart. You know, and I'm trying to like mirror that in my own life was, you know, just planting as many seeds as I can and trying to learn just because, you know, I think eventually like something's gonna have to come back, you know, and, and on my own terms, right.

You know, on my own terms. Yeah.

Kate: Yeah. Totally. And I think like. Diversifying revenue [00:23:00] streams at our age is the smartest thing to be doing. Like we've got a, I don't know if you're across the term portfolio career, that's a really big thing in Australia at the moment. Everyone's talking about portfolio careers and how you can have your, you know, multiple different portfolios going on.

Um, and so that's definitely something that I'm doing with, you know, retail businesses. Agency fractional spaces like China have lots of different. Um, things going on at any one time, and a few people have said to me recently, but how, but like, how can you be good at all those things? And my answer is, I can't be good at all those things.

And I definitely don't try to be good at all those things. I just try to be the first one. I just try to be as fast as I can. That's my, like, my approach, it does. My business partner's head in. She's always like, you're just like a maniac. It's like a raccoon. I never really quite know like, what's gonna happen tomorrow?

You like, so, you know, manic in so many ways, but my approach is like, I can't be the smartest person in the room because I'm not the smartest person in the room. Yeah. I can't be, I can't bring all these like smart products to market and I can't. Do all these crazy math and [00:24:00] spreadsheets to, you know, work out whatever it is.

But what I can do is be really fast, and that's what I've learned. Like when I start thinking of an idea, it's onsite the next day, that kind of thing. And that's the only thing that I can think sets me apart from other people is my speed. Um, it definitely has its shortcut, uh, sorry, not shortcuts, shortcomings, because I am definitely not always doing it the right way or it's not maybe perfected.

My approach is if I just try to get there as quickly as I can, then at least I've got my foot in, like I'm trying something. I'm not sitting there tapping away on something for 12 months and 700 other people have gotten there first. So that's also why I'm into the revenue stream thing is because I can just smash out lots of different things and see what sticks and not all of them will stick.

And I'll learn so much about myself along the way as I'm doing it. Fractional CMO work is not something. You would, two years ago, you would've got me [00:25:00] wanting to do, um, the, the head of, when I was the head of marketing at Sheet Society, the owner there, Haley said to me, I think you need to be a cmo. You've got the brains for it.

You've got the go for it. Like, let me, you know, help you get there. Like let's, you know, become the CMO of Sheet Society. And as lovely as that was and as and awesome it is that a founder has that kind of, um, belief in you. It just in my heart was not something that I wanted. I didn't want to be a CMO of a business that wasn't, you know, what aligned to me.

So to find myself two years later or however long later it is. As a fractional CMO is quite funny to me. Like how have I found myself and you know, she even said to me the other day, I knew you'd land here, but it's different. I haven't landed here in A CMO for someone else's business. I've landed here as a fractional CMO on my own terms, and that really aligns to my values.

And I didn't know that two years ago. And the only way I have known that is because I've just run at things so hard, so fast in so many different ways, and it's kind of come out in the wash. Not something, I couldn't have vision boarded this, or mood [00:26:00] boarded this out of life, what my life was gonna look like.

There was no way to do that. I kind of just had to try hundreds of different things and kind of go, ah, okay. I can't just be a performance marketer for a bait business because I'm just more than that, so I'm gonna have to offer fractional services. Okay, so now that means I'm offering fractional services, but in marketing.

But I also need a fractional, um, CDO, my business partner. And because we've got a lot of digital, um, project work, so that's where she came on board. So it, it was really a. Something that happened through just trying lots and lots of different things. And that's another thing I say to a lot of people all the time, just trying lots of things at speed.

Yeah. Is my approach.

Stephen: Yeah.

Kate: At all times.

Stephen: No, I really think there's something to that. 'cause I mean, I bet, you know, there's so many people smarter than me. Right. You know what I mean? But it's, I've noticed that it's like you can be so intelligent, but then still be paralyzed by action. Right. And it's like, mm.

You know, it's almost like the intelligence doesn't matter at that point. 'cause it's like Yeah. 'cause it's, yeah. People like yourselves are already like, so far ahead of them [00:27:00] because you know, you've already made five decisions and you've learned which ones aren't the correct ones just because you've created action.

Right. And totally. You know, something I really value in, um, Dan, who's, you know, works with me on this podcast and you know, you kind of corresponded with him, is that. What I value with our relationship, maybe you have that with Emma, is that he we're so fast, you know, and like we're just like, yep, sounds good.

Like, like we'll do it, we'll put it out, you know, we'll just see what's fixed and. I think that's like, you know, it's really, really valuable to be that and that so many people aren't that. So when you are first right, it's, it's valuables 'cause. 'cause you learn so much because you have to throw something against the wall and see what it does to make an informed decision.

And if you just think about throwing something against the wall, it's not the same thing as actually doing it, you know, doing

Kate: it. Yeah. And I think just partnering with the right people as well. Like even just when you're saying, you know, you've partnered with Dan. I partnered with Emma because I recognized skills that she had that I didn't have.

She is one of the smartest women that I have ever met in my life, and I've met a lot of women [00:28:00] and she is. Incredibly smart, and she's incredibly strategic and she is slow and methodical and works through things and understands things at a big picture. And then also at the minute detail. I am none of those things.

Yeah, I'm at a hundred miles an hour. I am this, this, this, and this. I am, you know, do, I've got my, the amount of tabs I've got open, the amount of, you know, calls that I'm doing and things like, you know, podcasts and things like this. Like I'm just kind of going at a million miles an hour. So I partnered with someone who will, who works well with me.

And that's another thing I always say is like, just. B, work with people that have the skills that you don't have and be totally vulnerable about that. Like I don't care that I'm not the smartest person in the room. I will openly say it, and that is totally fine. But what I do have is a really high eq. So I'm able to understand the shortcomings of myself and then seeing everyone else around me what they might be able to bring to the table, and then collectively bring that together as a partnership, whether that is with our clients or it's with Emma.[00:29:00]

For me, my EQ is one of the things that I value as the highest. It's the thing that changes the game when I'm walking into a board or when I'm walking into a leadership team. It's the thing that I hold really close and dearly as my, one of my biggest skills because it's the, it gives me the ability to be vulnerable and to be open and to be able to listen and to not have an ego in the room.

And then to be able to also make decisions about my career and who I'm partnering with and who you know, who my business partner is, or who, you know, what, what businesses we're gonna take on or what we're gonna do. Because my EQ is so high that I'm able to have really open and transparent conversations with people.

So many people in digital marketing and in agency land have really low EQs, and it is mind blowing to me when I get onto calls with clients and they'll tell us about this, some of their past experiences. That's another thing that I think really sets us apart is that we have very open, transparent conversations all the time.

Yeah. Because we have high EQs [00:30:00] and that is, that is a like a really big game changer as well.

Stephen: Yeah. There's. There's a sentiment in America where it's like, you know, the, the corporate speak jargon, you know, where it's just kind of like, you know, it's just like this fake, I don't know if you have that experience in Australia, maybe with the agencies or whatever, but it's just like, you know, there's just like this, like no one's talking about real things.

Like, you know what I mean? Like there's, there's like, there's all this jargon, you know, to like, and it's like, how about we just, you know, cut to the heart of an issue or, you know. Really get to the point of something, right? Instead of just spinning our wheels or wasting time. Going back to your point about action, right?

It's like, you know, there's a lot of, I think, wheel spinning, but. That sounds like it's, that you got like a mini superpower, you know, in terms of Well

Kate: it's, it's funny that you say, um, that there's a lot of jargon in a, in America there definitely isn't as much, I would say in Australia we are probably like, we're more, I think we're a lot more of a direct society in that sense, but I am [00:31:00] very direct and that is a hard thing for people around me at times.

Um, you know, there's been so many times where I've walked into meetings and I've been, you know, say. I've had, um, meta ads given to me to look at and my immediate response is, it's so ugly. Or, like, that is so shit. Yeah. And no one's gonna click that ad. And you know, I have had to put a filter on that over the, over the years because that's not okay.

You can't be sitting in a meeting telling someone that something they've designed for three hours is really lovely.

Kate (2): Yeah. Yeah.

Kate: And so definitely I've learned to put a filter on that, but at the same time, I'm very, I'm still very direct and I will say. That ad is not gonna convert because of X, Y, Z. And yes, that is subjective and yes, that is my opinion, but that is an opinion over 15 years of scaling, lots and lots of businesses being behind millions and millions of dollars of ad spend.

So when I say something's not going to convert or something's not going to hit the mark, that's just not my opinion of everyday Joe out the side. That's somebody who's been doing this for a really, really long time. Um, and so that's what I will always say as well is like [00:32:00] sometimes my directness, it can be hard.

But it, and, and I do try to pair that with my EQ at times to go, not the room, Kate.

Kate (2): Yeah.

Kate: Save that for the leadership team. Like the leadership team. They can get the brunt of it and we'll be really direct there. I've got some juniors in the room, you know, let's just change this around, put this into a few different, you know, terms that they'll like to hear.

But I am still quite direct and I think that has been something that has gotten me to this point as well, that I'm very clear there. You won't find a lot of jargon with me. A lot of the time. It will be, um. It'll be really clear, it'll be really direct. Um, because like, to be honest, if I'm gonna take time away from my family, I'm not fucking around.

Like, to be honest, like that's, you know, I have, it has to be for a reason and it has to be a good reason. And if it's not, then you're gonna hear about it and I'm out, like, and I'm pretty clear on that because, um, I need to be good at what I do and I need to be doing, doing it fast, and then I need to be out.

And I need to be back to the people that bring me a lot of joy. That's, that's how I set my life up. And that probably sounds [00:33:00] quite chaotic as well as aggressive, and I recognize that. But I think as a female in this industry, I have to be like that. Or else I'll just get eaten alive. Yeah.

Stephen: Yeah, I'm the type of person where if you're coming to me with that sort of energy, I would appreciate that so much, you know?

But I can definitely see where, you know, yeah, you might be a part of, you know, an organization and people like, you know, feelings get hurt or whatever. It's like, you know, I worked, you know, two hours designing this meta ad and like, you know, you just come in and tell me it shit

Kate: ally ugly.

Stephen: You know what I mean?

And it's like, you know. Mm-hmm. You know, I see both sides of that. I see both sides of that. Yeah, hundred percent. But in terms of like, you know, again, being effective, operating fast. You know, creating action. Like, it's like, you know, I almost like prefer someone to be like that, where it's just like, let's just cut to it and it's like.

So it's hard for, to teach a team to like, okay. Like ego aside, right? Like feelings aside, like it's truly not like a personal attack on like your creativity or like your skills. Yeah. But it's like, you know, we just wanna move forward in a, in a direction and [00:34:00] move quickly. That like makes sense. And you know, it's like you, yeah.

You've had the experience, right? You've had the, you know, you've walked the walk, so it's like hopefully your clients definitely appreciate that and the teams that you're working with, you know, see that in you.

Kate: Yeah. Well it's definitely, you know, for me. I mean, you know, time and place for sure about how you approach different things.

But I think the other big side of it is like, you know, I say, people always say to me like, oh, well it's not personal. Like it's just, it is business. In a sense, you know, what we do is personal in that sense. 'cause it is with, you know, especially for me, like I'm putting my heart on the line with, you know, um, Monday Digital.

Yeah. But at the same time it isn't personal. Like I have a job to do, I'm doing that job and then I'm out. And over the years people have said to me, oh, you're not someone that will catch around the water cooler. You don't really linger around to wanna have a chat. You won't, you won't really find me at the cultural things.

You won't really find me kind of being, and I, and I used to think that was psychotic in me or, or psychopathic in me. I was [00:35:00] like, what's wrong with me? I'm

Kate (2): not

Kate: interested in like the water cooler chat. I don't care. I don't really care what you did on the weekend. Yeah. Like I, I always thought that that was like a, I was, I used to say to people I worked for, am I not a people person?

But then I have quite a high eq, so I understand, am I narcissistic? Like what's wrong with me? Like why? You know? And I think what I've worked out is I'm a high performer. I'm very empathetic, I'm very emotional and I do have a really, you know, like I said, a high eq, but I'm very high performing and I'm in, and I'm out and I kind of, I've got a job to do and we are here to do a job.

And that's how I kind of very much ran my team is we're here to do a job. And if you do a really good job, you'll hear about it. If you don't do a good job, we'll talk about it. We'll talk through about how we're gonna get to the next, you know, the next stage where you're gonna do a better job. I'm not gonna be an asshole to you, but I, we are here to work.

And work is to make money. It's not a family. You guys aren't my sisters and brothers. Like, we're not here to kumbaya at each day. Yeah. And like, let's be clear about [00:36:00] the commercial reality of the positions we're in right now, and. That's been a hard thing. And, and that's why, you know, I, I don't really want a team at Monday Digital.

I'm not interested in a big team because I'm not that type of person. Em is, she's fantastic at teams. She can do that. She can, you know, really, um, lead people and take them on a journey, and she's wonderful at that. I'm not, but. Again, knowing, you know, partnering with the right person doesn't make sense for this exact reason.

Kate (2): Yeah.

Kate: But I think when you know, and you can identify who you are, like I, I am a high performing person who doesn't need cultural inputs from an organization who doesn't need kudos. Every time I do something well, who just gets something done and goes home to my family, cool. That's how I operate. Now I know how to take that as my skill and then how to apply it to all the different things that I'm doing, and I'm not, I used to be really.

Concerned with that personality trait. I used to think that there was something severely wrong with me, and that was that I was a psychopath, that I was like that. And now [00:37:00] I've realized, no, it is just a high performing trait that allows me to be very effective. And I take kindness and generosity as a very important value.

Like it's something I do try to be very kind in everything that I do.

Kate (2): Yeah.

Kate: But I am also very strong. In what I do, I try not to be like ruthless. I wouldn't say that is a term that I am, I have like am strong and I'm clear and I'm direct. But I am also, I do try to lead with kindness as well. And I think if I, if you barrel all of that up together and that's an offering to a client, typically that is liked, that's an effective person who's gonna have empathy.

Who, um, understands and has experience, like those things barreled up together for me, work quite well for a client. Um, it's definitely had its challenges with teams over the years

Stephen: Yeah.

Kate: But, um, [00:38:00] is a great model for an agency. Yeah.

Stephen: Yeah, yeah. No, and you, I mean, you wanna be, like you said, I, I think, like you said, not like harsher, but effective.

Right. You know, and like you said, that word effective, you know, and, you know, I don't, you don't wanna be working with the same client for a year. It's like, you know, then things aren't getting done, you know, it's like if you aren't moving on the next thing, it's like, you know, so what, what is like your typical like, working period, you know, with, um, with an organization?

Is it, you know, are you trying to get in and out in like a month or two months? Like what, what's that timeline look like?

Kate: Well, the performance marketing side of the business is obviously on retainers, so that is ongoing over a 12 month period at a sort of, I mean, I, I don't think any of our, um, retained clients, you know, would be looking to move anytime soon.

Like it's a, it's a long time partnership. Yeah. The fractional work, not so much. The fractional work for me is a three to four month thing. Um, and then with. From there, moving on to different types of [00:39:00] fractional work with that client. So I've had one client that I worked with last year on sort of a three month fractional role, and then from there, transitioned them into hiring someone to cover, to take on what I was doing.

Yeah. And so that I spent a couple of months then working with them to hire someone to bring on. So I find myself, a lot of the time in the fractional role, I'm actually coming in when it's a bit dire. I'm coming in when it's like. We don't have a marketing calendar. We don't have an NPD pipeline. Our team's on the ground, everyone wants to leave.

Our sales are on the floor. Help. Like you're not really hiring. I mean, I don't know. This is my experience. You're not really hiring A CMO when you're flying.

Kate (2): Yeah.

Kate: You Or like a fractional cmo. Sorry. When you're flying, you are, you know, you've probably, 'cause at that point you've probably got all your, everything's working well.

You've got the right person in place. You've at the head, at the top, sorry. You've got your team, you've, you know, everything's kind of going well. I typically find that I'm coming in when everything's falling apart. Um, which is sort of what I've done with, of my last sort of three fractional, um, roles.

Which is really, really, really hard. Yeah. 'cause sometimes it's firing [00:40:00] teams, it's restructuring teams, it's firing agencies, it's um, so Monday digital as the agency will sometimes partner as well. So they'll come in as the performance partner and the digital partner, and then I'll be in as a fractional C mode.

So I'm sort of wearing the two hats, which is funny, like I'll talk to clients and say. Okay. I'm wearing my fractional CMO hat right now, so I'm your boss because I'm running the marketing team and we'll talk internal talk. Now I'm taking that hat off and I'm putting my Monday digital hat on, and I'm an agency partner, and so you are gonna talk to me as if I'm an agency, you know, and that is hard, like that, you know, I, that's not an easy thing for teams to do, and that's why m very much runs that side when that happens.

Um, but so I, and I am typically coming in when it is on the ground and building it back up. And then when it's sort of built back up and it's ready to go, I'll then hand it back over to the business and say, right, we're at a point now where, you know, get, get the hire in place and let's get someone in. Um, I mean, I'm doing that at the moment, right.

For a client. I think we're nearly at a point where we can hire someone internally and I can hand over some of this stuff. [00:41:00] Um. So, yeah, I mean that's also hard as well because sometimes when you're coming in it is on the floor. So then it's, you know, it's a lot of work to get it up and it's, a lot of them it's can be quite emotionally taxing.

Yeah. 'cause everyone's emotionally charged and there's restructures going on and there's agencies being fired, or there's agencies being challenged and you know, if I'm coming in as an agency, challenging another agency, that's hard. Um, again, that will come back to my EQ kind of leading there and kind of trying to be empathetic and trying to, you know, understand why the agency's done what they've done or, you know, whatever it might be.

So I try to be fluid in how I roll with the fractional service because every single client is different, um, and there is nothing more emotionally charging than a fractional role where you're restructuring a marketing team.

Kate (2): Yeah.

Kate: And, and an agent and the agency partnerships. So I really try to make sure that that is a process that is methodically thought out, that is over a few months where I can kind of really work with the [00:42:00] founders or the, you know, the, the board of what it'll look like, and then try and like hand it over slowly so it can be a nice journey for everyone, um, as opposed to some cut and dry.

Scenarios I've found myself in over the years. So, um, yeah, to answer your question, it, it, it's sort of project based. You know, we do a lot of web work as well, so that is very much project based. And then the fractional services are project, but then we've got the retainers over a long period of time. And those are what I enjoy the most because those are, you know, the long term partnerships that you have with people in retainers.

Uh, you know, you can actually see. For a 12 month period, you've scaled the business to X or you've done X. So I really love those retainers.

Stephen: Yeah, yeah. Especially when it, you know, people want instantaneous results, right. But it's like you can see the progress, respect the process over a year. So just like, you know, seeing that growth within that organization mm-hmm.

And seeing the results take effect, like that must be really, really Yeah. Rewarding, you know, in your work.

Kate: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it is.

Stephen: Yeah. Well, Kate, I can, uh, honestly say this is one of my favorite conversations, [00:43:00] um, I've had to date. So I just wanna say thank you so much for taking the time. You know, if someone wanted to stay in touch with you or maybe, you know, talk to you or keep up with what you're doing, where would be the best way to do that?

Kate: Um, obviously LinkedIn, just Kate Howard on LinkedIn. I have recently started the most embarrassing TikTok and Instagram account of my life, which is, um, it's called Kate on Mondays. I'm really trying to get out there a little bit more and kind of share my experience and talk to people. I feel like there's, I, I'm just, my LinkedIn is bombarded with juniors, starting out, not knowing what to do and how to get into it and

Kate (2): yeah,

Kate: so I've thought I'll do TikTok and Instagram too.

You speak a bit more openly about this and give people a place to go. But I don't really like, um,

Stephen: I know I advertising it. I know, so I know I forced

Kate: myself to do it. Now

Stephen: I know if there's one thing, you know, I've, I've talked to a lot of people. It's, you know, there's a theme that's been consistent. It's like you gotta be shameless when it's yourself.

Like it's so easy for you. That, you [00:44:00] know, for you to, to go in an organization and pump up that brand. Right. But when the brand is you, it's so hard, right? It's so hard to, like, it's so hard. Promote that, you know, but it's like, you know, I know you, you know, treat them as you would yourself. You know what I mean?

You've, you've got a lot of value. I got so much outta this conversation and I'm sure other people will. So, you know, yeah, definitely. I think put yourself out there and you'll definitely make an impact for sure.

Kate: Thank you. Thanks so much.

Stephen: Yeah. Okay. So cool. So LinkedIn, TikTok, and. Instagram, um, and then, yeah, Monday digital, um, dot com slash au.

Okay. Awesome. Awesome.

Kate (2): Yeah. Yeah.

Stephen: Yeah. Well, thank you so much for being a guest on Fractional Hustle. I would love to, you know, maybe chat to you again, uh, sometime in the future. I, you know, this was really, really good experience. So yeah. Thank you so much.

Kate: Awesome. Thank you so much for having me.